The way I've noticed it, there's only One Otherworld. Sure there are many levels of it, but there's only one and that's where one goes when astrally projecting (if choosing to go to astral realms) as well as journeying. That was my point I guess, it's the same sort of location and the same rules apply either way such as the condition in which you choose to travel and drawing like energy to you.

You should be careful what you think to Be "Real shamanism", just because someone is a Celtic witch does not make their information any less important. There are many views as to what makes a True shaman. People strict enough to say that one must go through years of journey work and learning many key things before they can even Call themselves a Shaman and then there are those that are interested in certain aspects of it that sometimes will feel comfortable enough to call themselves shaman. I like to think I'm not pulling ideas out of thin air since I have been journeying for 3 years now. I don't think my experiences should be completely pushed aside just because I'm an eclectic and not a "Shamanist".

I will however check out more in the section I was recommended.

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*~I Close My Eyes So That I May See~*

Nobody claimed you were pulling ideas out of thin air and im not trying to push your ideas aside either ; the point was that the information you were relaying could be dangerous to newbies and you should be careful what your portray as fact. (Since your own personal experiences should not be considered fact per say, which is unfortunate frankly, but its all in good heartedness i assure you. as a new mod to this particular forum, which is a doozy of a forum,lol, i just want to make sure everything stays safe and friendly for everyone).
And i myself am a celtic girl by blood and by heart; it doesnt make anything i say less valid. in celtic practices it probly makes me more credible,lol...

"Astral projection is simple in definition. It is most commonly defined as the training of one's soul to leave the physical body for an out-of-body experience in the astral body."
by http://www.allabouttheoccult.org/astral ... on-faq.htm

So while a person must ap to get to the Otherworlds aka to journey, ap'ing doesnt always mean you are journeying. the 2 can be quite different and should be respectfully treated as such.

blessings~
ruby

_________________
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that frightens us."
~~Nelson Mandela~~


Mod of Shamanism,Crystals,Alternative Paths,Pagan Politics,Aromatherapy, Folklore,Dreamscape & Astrology!
Lindsay's Mentor Assistant for Wicca Revealed

Ah yes, the New Age and Neoshamanism clash of Neopaganism. Gotta love it.



Has nothing to do with DJ's witch background, and everything to do with her shoddy research practices and habits of going the money-making route with the lowest common denominator.



Cultural specifics. The latter portion of what you wrote here is a Western thing, thanks to individualism and plug-and-play spirituality to fill in certain voids. You obviously can call yourself whatever you want, but that's an entirely different matter than whether or not you can live up to what you call yourself, and can reliably referred to as such.

Additionally, calling oneself a "shaman" is a modern, New Age thing. Regardless of whether the shaman is born or trained, that title is GIVEN by the community, not picked by the person. Its similar to being given the title of Doctor by the university and medical community, one don't just decide that they're a true-blue doctor on their own.

Would you trust a person who CLAIMED to be a doctor to help manage your cancer, or would you want someone who can prove they have been given the title by the people after going through the proper processes to do that?



3 years isn't a whole lot of experience. The physical world is too huge for a person to understand in a single lifetime, how can you reasonably expect to know all about other worlds/realms in a single lifetime too, let alone 3 years?

I've lived a good life so far, with food always in my belly and no one's tried to attack me in the streets yet. Can I say that's how the world actually is for others because that's what my experiences has shown me? Not really.



Yea......no, this means little in the grand scheme of things. Most books regarding this subject outside of the anthropological field are going to be junk, once again because of New Agery. Hence why this is such a tricky subject to experience in the Western world, there's little left to look for. The one thing I've been able to find that's actually survived to modern times in my ancestors are the Taltos of Hungary (both humans and other animals), and they're born with the knowledge, not taught. So that's out of the question too with regards to usefulness to us.



I remember the Werelist discussion regarding this. The problem with what you've said here is that the others you're referring to have a similar esoteric background and understanding, so naturally they're going to be within your worldview and near to your experiences and understanding. Talk to someone with a different worldview and you're going to be confronted with different understandings and definitions that may cross out what you think.

There's nothing wrong with that in of itself, but to claim that the conclusion you both come to is how things inherently are, then that's being ethnocentric on other people's experiences. THAT is a problem.

~~~

So, long post short, if you're actually journeying then apparently you're doing something right to avoid having problems so far. Good for you.

But your argument against Rube on defining what "real shamanism" is can also be turned against you. You're making broad-brush claims as well on what "real shamanism" is and is not, so you gotta remember your own advice. Your experiences are yours, they're not everyone else's too.

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Along The River: My paganism blog

I don't really know anything about her personally, but her books are good. Just because she chooses to make money off of her talents doesn't make her a money-grubber or anything. Some information I do believe should be free (which is why forums are so nice) but it's not like she's those people that charge $1000 for Reiki lessons when most would charge maybe a donation fee. Some people can't afford that route however unfortunately



I agree that some people call themselves shaman and really shouldn't because it does involve a certain level of awareness that very few really get to. That's why I go under the term pagan and will sometimes state with shamanistic tendencies. Although I do believe one can choose this path and walk in successfully as a loner that Can go under the term shaman. Whether they gave it to themselves or a spirit in the Otherworld they work with.



Yeah but how does one Prove that the title was given to them?





I've noticed that no matter my years of experience or references I give still doesn't seem to give me any points in a debate, which I really don't understand as that's what most ask for to be taken seriously. I never did say that I knew more that most, I'm just going by what I've read. What I experience I am allowed to share, I wasn't saying it was the Only way...wish people would stop assuming that about me in my posts :/





I don't see why it's so hard to accept that one doesn't have to walk to another city to be able to experience it astrally. I mean how would one know how to get to another planet?~something in which I've heard of many doing when astrally projecting. So with intent in your astral journey you can do much, that includes teleporting you astral self to a place. It's not like I'm talking about moving your physical body there :}-<





I'm allowed to have my own opinion through conversation with others aren't I? It's like I said before, it's not like I'm saying that my way is the only way. And I bring up others that I've spoken with because they've given me different views on things to help me better understand. I state the things that make sense to me and that I've heard repeated times (so it can't all be fake information). Isn't that how one learns and then speaks to others? I mean come on, it's happened to me more than once where I'll go to an area with a new idea and they will down it completely because They heard it This way from this one other person and that's what they got use to. Atleast when I get people discussing new things with me I try to keep an open mind about it and sometimes incorporate their ideas in with mine. Just like with this journey thing, I think some of what the writer says is right but some isn't. That's off of what I've read and discussed with others and experienced. That's all I got and that's all I announced it as being.

In this specific case I can't say with 100% accuracy because well for one I don't think anything's really 100% but also because I am struggling myself with that I experience. I experience something that is Like astral projection (from what I heard it can be like) and I've experienced journeying with another in which I got much proven for me. Astrally speaking I didn't get much help in understanding whether it was really happening like I experienced with the journey. What I've read about astral projection while researching it, is that the feel I get from it is that it is like a much more intense journey. Now, I experience journeying much differently from others so I can see how there might be Some confusion because I speak rather bluntly with my opinions because that's just me. For the record I have had a non-therian group of shamans raise an eyebrow to me when I speak to them about my journeying experiences when a group of therian peoples completely understood and experienced it that way themselves. I think most of my problems with connecting with other people is because there is such an issue with terms and what they really mean because we all have slightly different perspectives. Nothing wrong with that but it takes time to clear up I guess.



I wasn't debating what "real shamanism" was. I was talking about journeying, something of which not Just shamans can do. Was just being general in what I've learned about the astral planes as a whole. Take what you want from it or otherwise leave it be I guess.

_________________
*~I Close My Eyes So That I May See~*

I think this quote says it all,lol... there are so many views and ideas both new and old. sometimes its hard for folks to discern what is truth and what is false, in the end we either choose to follow a group/pantheon and/or we go the hard route and learn by trial and error. it is the error we are trying to help some folks avoid by using this forum and site to teach and relay our own trial and errors. im sure there is at least 1 thing each of us could think back on and say "well that was a bummer, wish id known...."! there are several things i could look back on that way,lol...

all in all, this is a great topic for debate and can probably be debated over and over and over again

_________________
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that frightens us."
~~Nelson Mandela~~


Mod of Shamanism,Crystals,Alternative Paths,Pagan Politics,Aromatherapy, Folklore,Dreamscape & Astrology!
Lindsay's Mentor Assistant for Wicca Revealed

If you're talking about a doctor, then that's proven through the piece of paper framed in his/her office and stamped by the University. If you're talking about a shaman-like person, that's proven through the fact that the community (not just a group of friends) refers to you as such and trusts you in matters done only by the shaman-like role.



I can take what you say seriously as a recollection of your experiences, as how things are for you. I cannot, however, take what you say seriously, as how things INHERENTLY are.

In addition, you've only given one specific reference and that's DJ Conway. You've only stated 3 years of experience. Not a whole lot of things to give "points" to. Besides, this isn't a debate thread. I'm pointing out inconsistencies I find in your posts, not trying to express my position on the thread's topic.

Being taken seriously isn't the issue I'm talking about in the first place. Making claims like this:

is. You say that you want people to stop making assumptions, yet when you make a claim like that you may be challenged. That's not making assumptions, that's taking what's there at face value and questioning it, even if the "mostly through experience" part is supposed to be a disclaimer (which doesn't really lend itself as one). If it's just an opinion, then don't make it sound like a fact. If you consider it a fact, you're going to have to back it up when challenged in order for it to be understood as a fact by others. Simple as that.

I understand now that you are just speaking your opinion, but I hope you understand why I and others haven't been able to read your posts as such.



Way off base. You might want to re-read the part of your post I was commenting on, and then re-read my response, and then take it at face value. There's nothing more to my words than what's actually there.

_________________
Along The River: My paganism blog

Heh, no one likes their inconsistencies in their posts pointed out to them

Maybe we should get back to the topic at hand rather than directing our energies at picking posts apart?

Journeys can be dangerous, even for the experienced/clever types out there. And everyone is an individual and has their own ways of doing things, if it works for you then fab. If we get ourselves in to a dangerous situation because we didn't follow sound advice, we only have ourselves to blame. Self responsibility and all that.

_________________


Listen and in thine heart engrave my words; Keep closed thine eye and ear 'gainst prejudice;
Of others the example fear; think always for thyself: Consult, deliberate, and freely choose.
Let fools act aimlessly and without cause. Thou shouldst, in the present, contemplate the future.

(The Golden Verses of Pythagoras - D'Olivet)

I've been noticing that sometimes the more I try to explain something the more confusing it can get. I don't know how I end up doing it but somehow I do X_x

I don't believe I was being inconsistent though really, Yes I did state that I wasn't claiming my opinions to be 100% positive over others but then made the statement
"No, really alot of that stuff isn't as big of a deal as people make it out to seem"

I guess that's because it's a part of what I've read in most books that have to do with any sort of astral travel. Yes I know people tend not to be able to psychically read my mind and Know what I've read but I think without thinking I expect people to understand without me always mentioning where I got the opinion ^_^Vv What I've gathered from books in That respect is that alot of people fear and worry over very minor things that usually aren't even needed to Be worried about and then so never are able To journey or to astrally project. That's why I felt it was important to mention in a place where others are worried about the "newbies".

I'm going to silence myself, if anyone wants to learn something like this bad enough they will hopefully go in search of many materials and gain their Own beliefs on the matters rather than just keeping it narrowed to just one book or just one site.

Maybe please keep in mind for the future that I have troubles in such areas and point them out to me rather than getting flustered? Cause if I feel one person stressing something and showing aggravation towards me I sometimes automatically take up a defensive stance and block things out or I go into attack mode. Either way, not very helpful. But I'm working on it *sigh*

Brightest Blessings,
*~Luna

_________________
*~I Close My Eyes So That I May See~*